Difference between revisions of "User talk:HikaruFer"

Latest revision as of 04:52, 19 July 2020

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~Hikaru~

Newlines in templates

Hello! Just wanted to give you a small warning that newline symbols at the end (or beginning) of the template are also carried to the pages that use them. It's probably easiest to illustrate on the <noinclude> tags at the end of the templates. While it's pretty to write <noinclude>{{documentation}}</noinclude> on a new line, you also introduce here a new newline just before the noinclude tag. One way to avoid this is to write the starting <noinclude> on the preceding line with some text right before it. Then the newline will be within the noinclude tag and, due to what the tag does, will be present only on the template page where it will do no harm. Alternatively, you can use HTML comments to comment it out (), but it's not very pretty. And of course, you can also put the "<noinclude>{{documentation}}</noinclude>" thing whole on the preceding line and don't worry about any newlines.

You can also come across this issue when you use the #ifeq or similar function. The newlines they may introduce are far trickier to get rid of. Here's one I was fixing recently: Template:CostumeTable/Start. I don't want to discourage you from using these functions, just to keep in mind some of the more subtle effects they may have.

The newlines are an issue when you transclude a template to another page. It hinders formating a bit. Single newline is ignored by the wiki, 2 newlines divide paragraphs and 3 or more add empty lines between the paragraphs. For example, in the News/2020 page, there is one empty line between each entry (2 newlines) and everything works fine. However, if the {{NewsTable}} template would have a newline at the end, then there could be at most 1 newline between the entries (1+1=2), otherwise all of them would break a little (there would be an empty line in the last column, 1+2=3). So the newlines aren't that big of a deal, sometimes it doesn't even have to be a problem, but it's best to avoid sending them to other pages somehow.

Also, for testing templates I sometimes use the Special:Expandtemplates page. I use it mostly as a second editor window for testing the changes without having to modify the original template to see the results and then reverting it back after the test. The additional info there may also be useful sometimes. --Matusm (talk) 21:24, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Ohhh yeah, do u think it matters in the "fix" i been doing to the bosses page? (like, take Snarbolax for example). Since i did it like this to avoid a visual mess xd, i got lost looking for an specific word being all cramped. I remembered to dont add a newline at the Template:Boss when adding the auto-categories :D, that ended up fine right?. And in no way i find ur msg discouraging, i like to learn~ and as i said i forgot many of the "rules" for the templates so i only edit them if i want to test a fix or add something i think its needed; im guilty of using the "enter" key too much sometimes, its a mania xd i try to just add one between each }} {{ just so i or any other wikieditor dont get lost between each entry (like the news/2020) but when i edit a template i (most of the time) have to test if everything ended up fine, like, when i shorted the APNG's template and earsed a newline and then the boxes glued each other badly so i was like "oh kk that was there for a reason" *manually revert* xd. Next time im gonna try the special template u mention :D.

Feel free to leave me more msgs like this~ HikaruFer (talk) 21:57, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it matters in this case. You've introduced a newline at the end of the Boss template, so now the boss pages have one empty line at the beginning. If you edit the Snarbolax page, remove one newline that follows the Boss template and preview it, the empty line at the beginning should disappear. But of course, this should be fixed in the template, not pages. :P

The 2 newlines between news entries are fine, even newlines inside the templates may be fine. The only issue are newlines near beginning and end of the template. I like when the templates are nicely readable, too, but often it's because of weird rules like these that you can't make the templates look very pretty. This one rule specifically is responsible for the long <includeonly><noinclude> chains at the ends. But it's also thanks to this rule that you can put that many enters between entries. :D --Matusm (talk) 23:27, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

OHHH i saw it xdd i didnt notice it, i mean, not that it was due a newline in the template xd. jajaja its funny how that simple "enter" caused that xd. Now it looks prettier :D~. Thx for telling me this way~ if u edit it i wouldnt have understand where and why that newline caused what it did HikaruFer (talk) 23:34, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

No problem. I'm happy it worked out well. :) --Matusm (talk) 00:04, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Tile minimaps

Hello! I'd like to know if those minimap images you've uploaded are from the game (stored image files) or if you recreated them from scratch with image manipulation software? Example --Spockler (talk) 04:44, 12 May 2020 (EEST)

Hello there~ The ones i have done are all with image manipulation software, i take screens in-game of the map, put them together with the software, then i use a selection tool to create all the shapes, and then i add the icons (from the games files, which are the same as the ones here in the wiki). Sadly, the maps seen in-game are generated by the game itself so there aren't images files of them and those had to be done manually :( --HikaruFER 02:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I must point out that these maps are very well done and no doubt recreating them took a lot of time and effort. You even got the collision right with the pixel precision on these maps that are missing some tiles on the edges! I assume you're also using Tudey scene editor for this job, as most of the map can't be captured by the minimap view distance?

Also, I wonder if scene (level) IDs are welcome in this wikipedia as technical trivia? I've studied game levels for quite a while and I could add their IDs to their respective articles, as there are some interesting things going on behind the scenes (pun intended). However I'm not sure if such data is welcome here as Grey Havens might see it as a possible threat to the game (as they sometimes do) even though they aren't monitoring wikipedia (at all). --Spockler (talk) 15:21, 12 May 2020 (EEST)

Thanks! Not only me has done some of theses map btw :), i have done a few. I took screens of the big map, the minimap its extremely tiny to make it work, its posible but too bothersome xd, so with a few images-screen i can complete the guide for the whole map.

And, you mean IDs as game files? like "Starlight Cradle's map is generated with this game file"? if its that, im not gonna lie, that would be interesting to check but doesnt have space in the wiki sadly :(, they (Grey Havens) had said they prefer static maps (like the one in Apocrea's mission or Sanctuary) to not be uploaded in the main space of the wiki since they give the static efect in-game for a reason, theres still these images around but not in the main space. You know now that u mention it, Novaster once mentioned that someone wrote a script to make these map images easier but i never got to ask them about it, do u know something about that? --HikaruFER 17:19, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

> And, you mean IDs as game files?

No, as scene file names (e.g. 1 for Haven: Town Square or 393 for Starlight Cradle: Shrine of Slumber IV). I don't want to upload files themselves or maps of procedural levels, but just IDs.

> Novaster once mentioned that someone wrote a script to make these map images easier, do u know something about that?

Unfortunately no, but there's the Super Zoom mod that allows you to move camera to sky-high to get the top-down view. Minimap is aligned with the 3D tilemap, but it's not 1:1 size. It might still be useful, tho. --Spockler (talk) 19:56, 13 May 2020 (EEST)

As for the IDs it sounds like something you can share in discord and/or the forums since some ppl may find it useful but here in wiki theres no much pages relating to the code sadly, i mean, at least on the main space D:.

I dont usually use mod but in case i have troubles with maps i may try it :D (but, dunno where to look tho? do u have some link or a google keyword?) although most of the mapd are done (for what i have seen recently) --HikaruFER 18:02, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Here's the link to the mods page. There's also a invitation link to KnightLauncher modloader Discord group (where are even more mods listed). I'm also in this group. In case you want to contact me, my username starts with 'Thy'. --Spockler (talk) 19:01, 14 May 2020 (EEST)

Thx! Im gonna check then out them~ --HikaruFER 19:00, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Old design

I can't believe I missed out old minimap and Shadow Fire designs by just two months. When I crash-landed on July 6, 2014 there were already a new particle effect used of Shadow Fire and improved color scheme for minimap. --Spockler (talk) 01:30, 29 May 2020 (EEST)

Hahaha yeah, fun fact its i played in May and didnt remember it had the old desing, even the fire in the traps xd and when i came back in October, it already had the new design but i didnt noticed anything. It was yesterday looking through my screens that i realized xd --HikaruFER 23:46, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

"Crash Course" vs "Spiral Knights Main Theme"

Crash Course and Spiral Knights Main Theme are actually two different similar sounding tracks. Crash Course is only used for the tutorial. --Leafblader (talk) 09:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Ohh well i was using the OST list but i didnt remember "Spiral Knight Main Theme" was in there the first time i check it xd (i went to check right now just to be sure). I noticed the track was similar but not identical to the bgm in the game but stick to "Crash Course" since i thought the other one was not part of the OST :O --HikaruFER 01:28, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Hidden Vending Machines

Hey, just to clear some things up... I can understand that the image of those Vending Machines can be confusing and seem out of context, but that's why I called them "hidden Vending Machines". Note stated that they cannot be seen nor interacted, but they've existed since the introduction of Arcade Battle Arena. It's for the historical purposes. I suppose it doesn't really belong in the gallery, as images of older content on other articles are on the right side of the page. --Spockler (talk) 01:58, 21 June 2020 (EEST)

Sorry for the late reply, im away from the wiki, just checking every few weeks. As for the image, i assumed the hidden would mean some misunderstanding since hidden could mean "find it" in-game but not hidden "within the code". So to avoid that i prefer it to move it from the main space --HikaruFER 04:52, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@@ Line 2: / Line 2: @@
 ~Hikaru~
 ----
-==Userspace Edits==
+== Newlines in templates ==
-I think I've worked out a solution for our recent upsets. Looking over [http://wiki.spiralknights.com/User_talk:Clotho#Duplicate_Icon_Issue this] and providing some perspective on Clotho's talk page would help push the policy into review stage, to be rejected/modified/accepted. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 20:27, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
+Hello! Just wanted to give you a small warning that newline symbols at the end (or beginning) of the template are also carried to the pages that use them. It's probably easiest to illustrate on the &lt;noinclude&gt; tags at the end of the templates. While it's pretty to write <nowiki><noinclude>{{documentation}}</noinclude></nowiki> on a new line, you also introduce here a new newline just before the noinclude tag. One way to avoid this is to write the starting &lt;noinclude&gt; on the preceding line with some text right before it. Then the newline will be within the noinclude tag and, due to what the tag does, will be present only on the template page where it will do no harm. Alternatively, you can use HTML comments to comment it out (<nowiki><!--(newline)--></nowiki>), but it's not very pretty. And of course, you can also put the <nowiki>"<noinclude>{{documentation}}</noinclude>"</nowiki> thing whole on the preceding line and don't worry about any newlines.
-:It is a good idea actually. I just leave my opinion :). Hope this could be made so users understand that, even if we know its a mistake, they dont get mad for the change. For later, more than a tutorial, we can add an "SpiralKnight:" page for the user page (with the policy is approved). To be honest, being new here, couldnt find the page where it help you do a user page, it took me a while to find it, maybe because  "tutorial" wouldnt be a good name for me, but something like a "SpiralKnight:" page WITH the tutorial inside, we can add the categories that have the icons usefull for the pages. Hope this advance :) --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 20:51, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
-:'''P.D:''' not related but all those mistake in the disguise box was me haha. Sorry i tried my best within the new box of items, it was way easy with the autumn prize box x//D --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 20:52, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
-::Thanks :). Don't worry about it...I think we all know prize boxes are all kinds of silly. Even the forum admins :P --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 20:56, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
-:::Well, Clotho says it's up to us. So now booty scooty feedback over to [http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/112452 here]. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 02:24, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
-::::Woopie. I think a revision of the style guide would be fun, but it would need its own forum node, and I can start that after making a decent base for people to work from. So much wikipedia MoS source linking to do. Subpages would definitely help with the organization. I might have to make this a priority over other projects, because I will likely be far too busy with icky real life to help the wiki as much as people are used to. Which is an unhealthy amount. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 23:16, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
-:::::Yay~ Dunno if subpages would be SpiralKnights:Style guide/subpagename or SpiralKnights:subpagename, i like the first better, but dunno how will work. And yeah, i saw your To Do List and thaaaaats alot ._.!!! Dont push yourself too much tho, i will see how much help i can do there :) --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 00:08, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
-==NPC Template==
+You can also come across this issue when you use the #ifeq or similar function. The newlines they may introduce are far trickier to get rid of. Here's one I was fixing recently: [[Template:CostumeTable/Start]]. I don't want to discourage you from using these functions, just to keep in mind some of the more subtle effects they may have.
-It's better to be consistent. Either add the bullet to location too, and remove the duplicates from each individual page, or remove the bullet from the template and add it to each individual page for roles. It is a lot better to have flexibility, so I'd go with the "no bullets in the template" option. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 23:25, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
-:I'm/we're going to have to go in and fix all the pages either way, so before you do more, really decide what to do. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 23:44, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
-::Well, usually NPCS have only one role so it is better if in the role parameter we can add the bullet to the template, because there will be not mistake, its always (havent seen a NPC who have two roles) one role so it will avoid users to mistakenly put a bullet in one page, and not in the other. But in locations is different, usualy a NPC have more than one location, so the bullet needs to be added with the <nowiki>[[Text]]</nowiki> so i though it wouldnt be necesary to add the bullet in location, only in role (all knights have the role without bullet, almost all gremlins too, havent re-checked the rest of them). Oh and im adding a tag of update (to boss template) for those who have NPC's template --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 23:49, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::I wouldn't bother with the tag...the pages are functioning (this reformat is not vital) and the tag makes it look pretty messy. And I probably won't get to it for a long time. Regarding consistencies, you can't make exceptions with that mindset, otherwise templates would be a mess all over the place. Pick one or the other, and I'll fix the pages. Options are bullets in the template, or no bullets in the template. I would go with no bullets in the template. Mistakes are less likely to be made with copypasting as long as the sources are consistent. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 23:55, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
-::::Well, in that case, no bullets in the template would be. Im actually doing that right now with the NPCs. So gonna fix all those * before forgetting --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 23:58, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::::Alright, as long as it's fun. I try very hard to clean up my own messes, even if it's an extrapolation via another editor's good faith work. Since the template is my design, it's my mess. To avoid edit conflicts I'll let you have at it. I'll put in more linking examples for the [[:Template:Fileinfo]]. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 00:06, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-::::::If you want you can but more examples. But it was mostly for the "main item" because the previous template have it and the new didnt. So want to be sure xD. Oh and dont worry about the "mess" i can understand about that so no biggy :) i just want to do things ^^ --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 00:21, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
+The newlines are an issue when you transclude a template to another page. It hinders formating a bit. Single newline is ignored by the wiki, 2 newlines divide paragraphs and 3 or more add empty lines between the paragraphs. For example, in the [[News/2020]] page, there is one empty line between each entry (2 newlines) and everything works fine. However, if the <nowiki>{{NewsTable}}</nowiki> template would have a newline at the end, then there could be at most 1 newline between the entries (1+1=2), otherwise all of them would break a little (there would be an empty line in the last column, 1+2=3). So the newlines aren't that big of a deal, sometimes it doesn't even have to be a problem, but it's best to avoid sending them to other pages somehow.
-Hmm, what about (not related to bullet issue):
+Also, for testing templates I sometimes use the [[Special:Expandtemplates]] page. I use it mostly as a second editor window for testing the changes without having to modify the original template to see the results and then reverting it back after the test. The additional info there may also be useful sometimes. --[[User:Matusm|Matusm]] ([[User talk:Matusm|talk]]) 21:24, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
-*[[Merchant]]
-Or
+:Ohhh yeah, do u think it matters in the "fix" i been doing to the bosses page? (like, take [[Snarbolax]] for example). Since i did it like this to avoid a visual mess xd, i got lost looking for an specific word being all cramped. I remembered to dont add a newline at the [[Template:Boss]] when adding the auto-categories :D, that ended up fine right?. And in no way i find ur msg discouraging, i like to learn~ and as i said i forgot many of the "rules" for the templates so i only edit them if i want to test a fix or add something i think its needed; im guilty of using the "enter" key too much sometimes, its a mania xd i try to just add one between each <code>}} {{</code> just so i or any other wikieditor dont get lost between each entry (like the news/2020) but when i edit a template i (most of the time) have to test if everything ended up fine, like, when i shorted the APNG's template and earsed a newline and then the boxes glued each other badly so i was like "oh kk that was there for a reason" *manually revert* xd. Next time im gonna try the special template u mention :D.
+:Feel free to leave me more msgs like this~ [[User:HikaruFer|HikaruFer]] ([[User talk:HikaruFer|talk]]) 21:57, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
-*[[Merchant]]: Elemental Defender
+::Yes, it matters in this case. You've introduced a newline at the end of the Boss template, so now the boss pages have one empty line at the beginning. If you edit the Snarbolax page, remove one newline that follows the Boss template and preview it, the empty line at the beginning should disappear. But of course, this should be fixed in the template, not pages. :P
+::The 2 newlines between news entries are fine, even newlines inside the templates may be fine. The only issue are newlines near beginning and end of the template. I like when the templates are nicely readable, too, but often it's because of weird rules like these that you can't make the templates look very pretty. This one rule specifically is responsible for the long <nowiki><includeonly><noinclude></nowiki> chains at the ends. But it's also thanks to this rule that you can put that many enters between entries. :D --[[User:Matusm|Matusm]] ([[User talk:Matusm|talk]]) 23:27, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
+:::OHHH i saw it xdd i didnt notice it, i mean, not that it was due a newline in the template xd. jajaja its funny how that simple "enter" caused that xd. Now it looks prettier :D~. Thx for telling me this way~ if u edit it i wouldnt have understand where and why that newline caused what it did [[User:HikaruFer|HikaruFer]] ([[User talk:HikaruFer|talk]]) 23:34, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
-Or
+::::No problem. I'm happy it worked out well. :) --[[User:Matusm|Matusm]] ([[User talk:Matusm|talk]]) 00:04, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
-*[[Merchant]]
+== Tile minimaps ==
-*Elemental Defender
-Or
+Hello! I'd like to know if those minimap images you've uploaded are from the game (stored image files) or if you recreated them from scratch with image manipulation software?
+[[:File:Map-Ironclaw_Munitions_Factory-Warfare_Workshop.png|Example]] --[[User:Spockler|Spockler]] ([[User talk:Spockler|talk]]) 04:44, 12 May 2020 (EEST)
-*[[Merchant|Elemental Defender]] (confusing I think)
+:Hello there~ The ones i have done are all with image manipulation software, i take screens in-game of the map, put them together with the software, then i use a selection tool to create all the shapes, and then i add the icons (from the games files, which are the same as the ones here in the wiki). Sadly, the maps seen in-game are generated by the game itself so there aren't images files of them and those had to be done manually :( --[[User:HikaruFer|<b><font color="#265aa6">Hikaru</font><font color="#238e3b">FER</font></b>]] 02:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
-Or
+::I must point out that these maps are very well done and no doubt recreating them took a lot of time and effort. You even got the collision right with the pixel precision on these maps that are missing some tiles on the edges! I assume you're also using Tudey scene editor for this job, as most of the map can't be captured by the minimap view distance?
+::Also, I wonder if scene (level) IDs are welcome in this wikipedia as technical trivia? I've studied game levels for quite a while and I could add their IDs to their respective articles, as there are some interesting things going on behind the scenes (pun intended). However I'm not sure if such data is welcome here as Grey Havens might see it as a possible threat to the game (as they sometimes do) even though they aren't monitoring wikipedia (at all). --[[User:Spockler|Spockler]] ([[User talk:Spockler|talk]]) 15:21, 12 May 2020 (EEST)
-*[[Merchant]] (Elemental Defender)
+:::Thanks! Not only me has done some of theses map btw :), i have done a few. I took screens of the big map, the minimap its extremely tiny to make it work, its posible but too bothersome xd, so with a few images-screen i can complete the guide for the whole map.
+:::And, you mean IDs as game files? like "Starlight Cradle's map is generated with this game file"? if its that, im not gonna lie, that would be interesting to check but doesnt have space in the wiki sadly :(, they (Grey Havens) had said they prefer static maps (like the one in Apocrea's mission or Sanctuary) to not be uploaded in the main space of the wiki since they give the static efect in-game for a reason, theres still these images around but not in the main space. You know now that u mention it, [[User:Novaster|Novaster]] once mentioned that someone wrote a script to make these map images easier but i never got to ask them about it, do u know something about that? --[[User:HikaruFer|<b><font color="#265aa6">Hikaru</font><font color="#238e3b">FER</font></b>]] 17:19, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
-For NPCs such as Archilus? The point of this section of the infobox is to state a generalized role, and "elemental defender" doesn't really reveal anything to nubbies, even though it is what he is labelled as in-game. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 00:10, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
+::::'''> And, you mean IDs as game files?'''
+::::No, as scene file names (e.g. 1 for Haven: Town Square or 393 for Starlight Cradle: Shrine of Slumber IV). I don't want to upload files themselves or maps of procedural levels, but just IDs.
+::::'''> [[User:Novaster|Novaster]] once mentioned that someone wrote a script to make these map images easier, do u know something about that?'''
+::::Unfortunately no, but there's the Super Zoom mod that allows you to move camera to sky-high to get the top-down view. Minimap is aligned with the 3D tilemap, but it's not 1:1 size. It might still be useful, tho. --[[User:Spockler|Spockler]] ([[User talk:Spockler|talk]]) 19:56, 13 May 2020 (EEST)
-:Will go with the second option<br>
+:::::As for the IDs it sounds like something you can share in discord and/or the forums since some ppl may find it useful but here in wiki theres no much pages relating to the code sadly, i mean, at least on the main space D:.
-:*[[Merchant]]: Elemental Defender<br>
+:::::I dont usually use mod but in case i have troubles with maps i may try it :D (but, dunno where to look tho? do u have some link or a google keyword?) although most of the mapd are done (for what i have seen recently) --[[User:HikaruFer|<b><font color="#265aa6">Hikaru</font><font color="#238e3b">FER</font></b>]] 18:02, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
-:But, wouldnt it be Vendor? or do i keep Merchant? --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 00:21, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-::Shoot yes, vendor. Argh :P --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 00:28, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::Hahaha though somewhere, sometime, read "do no use Merchant, use vendor instead" so i was confused hhaha. So
-:::*[[Vendor]]: Elemental Defender
-:::Would be :3 --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 00:30, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-::::Sounds good to me. And yeah, I think I wrote that, BECAUSE it's so easy to derp like this. Vendor is more appropriate than merchant for an umbrella term, considering both the in-game conventions as well as the real-world definitions. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 00:32, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::::Hahaha i think i keep it in mind because when i did a test traslating "Vendors who sell this item" to the ES wiki it give me problems because Sell is Vender and Vendors is Vendedores, the two words sounds the same and sound pretty dumb and redundant in spanish "Vendedores que venden este articulo" hahaha xD so i was like... okay what else i can do *leaves slowly* Im still giving it time till the adquisiton proyect is done so i can think what word i can used to replace "Vendors" or "sell" the one that fits and traslate better xD. Thats is a fun fact now that i think lol. Well going to start copy/editing :3! --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 00:43, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
+::::::Here's the [https://sites.google.com/view/spiralknights-mods/home link] to the mods page. There's also a invitation link to [https://github.com/lucas-allegri/KnightLauncher KnightLauncher] modloader Discord group (where are even more mods listed). I'm also in this group. In case you want to contact me, my username starts with 'Thy'. --[[User:Spockler|Spockler]] ([[User talk:Spockler|talk]]) 19:01, 14 May 2020 (EEST)
-==NPC Page Divisions==
+:::::::Thx! Im gonna check then out them~ --[[User:HikaruFer|<b><font color="#265aa6">Hikaru</font><font color="#238e3b">FER</font></b>]] 19:00, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
-Don't add repeated sections. The changes made to the various NPC pages divide the page up into repeated, tiny sections (description and appearance are too similar, and NPCs don't have official in-game descriptions anyway like items and certain locations do). We're going to have to revert those changes. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:02, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:Yikes. How many pages was this done to? I can try to start at the beginning of the alphabet and work forward while you go backwards. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:04, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-::But isn't important to said what is the purpose of that NPC? We can change the "description" but we need to said what that NPCs does and/or what its its purpose, and the Notes said "Release/patch notes/game build history, interesting things, etc" not "all info about the npc" right? --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 05:06, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::Yes, it's important to have the information. As far as I can tell, this information was already in the notes section for most of these pages. It's not enough information to have its own section, and NPCs don't have official descriptions, so having a description section is both redundant, cluttered looking, and confusing. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:08, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::Though there is some archaic leftovers from the previous bad format. That's why we're updating the pages - they're inconsistent or nonexistent. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:10, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-::::Well but it seem good with NPCs page with low-info but with alot-info they look clutter (dunno if thats the word, chubby, big, a bus full of people xD). Wikias have a resumen (mostly, what the thing/person/mosnter/ is-do) and then the sub sections, and is a tiny info because the detailed one goes in others sections right? --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 05:12, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::::Not sure what you mean. Larger sections are superior to smaller sections as long as the information flows and the subject is either relatable, or there's a bunch of small things that don't belong in their own sections (such as a single point of history, if we have a lot of history, then we add a history section). Imagine reading a book with a bunch of unnecessary chapter breaks. You really only want a new section when there's a content change. The point is to divide for the sake of navigation (you can link directly to sections with URLs), and we don't want to do that here because the stuff is too similar and/or too small. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:19, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-::::::Uhmm, well in that case must be eliminated in ALL rigth? --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 05:20, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::::::I'm working on carefully fixing [[Archilus]]' page. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:27, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::::::Argh, I said I'd start at the beginning of the alphabet :P --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:29, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-If you think the page could look better, talk about it here. Argh. The use of "you" in an article is so bad lol. More leftovers from the archaic times. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:31, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
+==Old design==
+I can't believe I missed out [https://wiki.spiralknights.com/File:Jade-Hikaru-Playing_2014-2.png old minimap and Shadow Fire designs] by just two months. When I crash-landed on July 6, 2014 there were already a new particle effect used of Shadow Fire and improved color scheme for minimap. --[[User:Spockler|Spockler]] ([[User talk:Spockler|talk]]) 01:30, 29 May 2020 (EEST)
+:Hahaha yeah, fun fact its i played in May and didnt remember it had the old desing, even the fire in the traps xd and when i came back in October, it already had the new design but i didnt noticed anything. It was yesterday looking through my screens that i realized xd --[[User:HikaruFer|<b><font color="#265aa6">Hikaru</font><font color="#238e3b">FER</font></b>]] 23:46, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
-Another minor format issue that is a major personal peeve of mine: overlinking. Terms shouldn't be linked more than once in an article, in general, when you're reading in paragraph format. Exceptions of course include template repeats. More information [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Linking#What_generally_should_not_be_linked here]. I have "remove repeated linking" in more than several edit comments :P --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:34, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
+=="Crash Course" vs "Spiral Knights Main Theme"==
+[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgSDjQHPHy8&list=OLAK5uy_ke2LQJyD_uRh89sOjzIISOUQqAsfW_gkU Crash Course] and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWIcLWi2K1M&list=OLAK5uy_kk6j3jMYDBO6HJqBr6KZ8m9LvX_uLru8c&index=17 Spiral Knights Main Theme] are actually two different similar sounding tracks. Crash Course is only used for the tutorial. --[[User:Leafblader|Leafblader]] ([[User talk:Leafblader|talk]]) 09:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
-:Well i can undo manually the description implementation and leave it with the info in notes as they (mostly) were. Im doing that right now, and also eliminating the overlinking, but the wording (what u did with archilus) must be other time because going to eat and sleep soon xD --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 05:36, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
+:Ohh well i was using the OST list but i didnt remember "Spiral Knight Main Theme" was in there the first time i check it xd (i went to check right now just to be sure). I noticed the track was similar but not identical to the bgm in the game but stick to "Crash Course" since i thought the other one was not part of the OST :O --[[User:HikaruFer|<b><font color="#265aa6">Hikaru</font><font color="#238e3b">FER</font></b>]] 01:28, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
-:I did [[Armero]] so i removed the link in the Dialogue tab (because isnt template). Do that with the others? --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 05:39, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-::It's a lot of work keeping the wiki clean, and very painful when you generate more work for yourself. I wish someone would have stopped and helped me when I made [[Themes and Environments|this]] in the past - it was very bad, just check the version history. But all ppl did was say "that's nice" when glancing at it and I never saw the complaint in the discussion tab until years later, and after I'd learned quite a lot.
+==Hidden Vending Machines==
+Hey, just to clear some things up... I can understand that the image of those Vending Machines can be confusing and seem out of context, but that's why I called them "hidden Vending Machines". Note stated that they cannot be seen nor interacted, but they've existed since the introduction of Arcade Battle Arena. It's for the historical purposes. I suppose it doesn't really belong in the gallery, as images of older content on other articles are on the right side of the page. --[[User:Spockler|Spockler]] ([[User talk:Spockler|talk]]) 01:58, 21 June 2020 (EEST)
-Definitely leave the link in the dialogue section tabs. That's part of the template system and it's in its own section - so it's format and convenience. Repeated linking is, as emphasized in the wiki article, mostly an issue when reading/writing in paragraph format. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:41, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
+:Sorry for the late reply, im away from the wiki, just checking every few weeks. As for the image, i assumed the hidden would mean some misunderstanding since hidden could mean "find it" in-game but not hidden "within the code". So to avoid that i prefer it to move it from the main space --[[User:HikaruFer|<b><font color="#265aa6">Hikaru</font><font color="#238e3b">FER</font></b>]] 04:52, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
-[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Layout#Headings_and_sections Here's some more information about sections and section content]. Because we are a gaming wiki, we don't perfectly follow all of wikipedia's conventions (especially with names). We rarely encounter an article that has a section that's too big. Our problem is sections that are too small, because the game has such limited, distinct information. What was the NPC's childhood like? Did they hatch from an egg? All kinds of missing things. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:49, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:Well that happens xD see me that i just have less than three months. The fact that the OOO-SK team doesnt make a format and practically gives the wiki to whoever wants to edit (if noone would like to edit this wiki would be empty or out-ofdate ALOT) so i dont take it "take serious" (that everything must be perfect) i like consistence but well, mistakes happen xD. I was mostly guiding by the Style Guide's format so, ni the next cases we should be really sure  what looks good, where the <nowiki>[[]]</nowiki> would appear (like, we add the bracet to the gallery caption but later we see its overlinking) and just test it in 3~5 pages, at the end of the week we probably would come out with a consistent format and we can start implemented it. It is mostly because if we took too much testing because we dunno would fit better then we will never end xD. Maybe we can ask in the Forum if we're not sure but nor all people comment, so its a slow to the process. But well, this can all be fixed :) --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 05:59, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-I've been thinking about an intro section, because it does LOOK better than notes underneath appearance, but notes should absolutely never be at the top of a page. I have gone to the forums regarding NPCs, but pretty much nobody except me, you, and Ciardha really (currently) care about putting the work into the pages of these guys. It should always be fun, yes, and I am sorry if I sound serious - I try not to sound mean serious, but I often come across as stiff. But yeah...[http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/107407 node 107407] - some outdated discussion mostly about dialogue. I wouldn't reply to the thread, it wouldn't be helpful, but it should show how many individuals just LOVE EDITING NPC PAGES. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 06:08, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-Okay, I poked around wikipedia looking at articles about people, and noticed that a lot of them have obese intro sections. So against my instinct I tried it out on the Barrus and Archilus pages. What do you think? Remember to shrink your window and pretend you have a tiny monitor when looking at these things. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 06:14, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-I didn't think I would like it this way, but I kinda do. It mimics the behavior of a description and lets the "appearance" section flow into the "gallery" section. I'm thinking we should sleep on this before putting any more work into it though. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 06:16, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-For the HoH vendors appearance, I'm thinking instead of the 5*, we say something like "[[Owlite Shield]] line" etc. and below the template say "Depends on rank." I'll put another test edit in. But definitely should sleep on it. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 06:33, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:I do like it. I think thats what my eyes need xD! Well, after fixing the description's tab i would sleep :) but first, see this [http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/EADI/Aqui/JPEGbarrustest_zpsz91b5dzq.jpg Photoshop Time] i did (800x600) --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 06:36, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:And the HoH Vendors idea is great :D it put all the items without being wrong.
-Then again that might be too repetitive. But leaving it at the 5* is inherently wrong, just as describing Bulky during only the Dark Harvest would be wrong. Argh. Definitely going to sleep on it. And yeah, I always shrink my window when testing new format, there are plenty of phone users out there. We shouldn't cater to that because we are a wiki with a huge amount of information but we should make sure pages are squishy.
-Admittedly I am disappointed that Zebulon's chromalisk tank is always a little baby, and not scaled to tier. I kid. The fact they all change outfits is amazing. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 06:39, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-[http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/apostrophes/apostrophes-with-words-ending-in-s/ Here I am staring at apostrophes at 1:45 in the morning] regarding Archilus's vs. Archilus'. Goodnight. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 06:45, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:Lol xD. Well, as a Spanish user, Archilus's is better. But in grammar, i cant give much feedback, not a pro and i cant spell words like "appearance" without thinking twice xD. Nite~ --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 06:50, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-::Yeah it doesn't matter either way, so let's use the one that is better for more languages. Even though it's the Eng wiki. I have done a few more modifications to <nowiki>Archilus's'ss''s's</nowiki> page, take a look. I've uploaded pictures of Archilus so we can really see what the page will look like when it's finished. IDK if you were really gunning to do those, so I only did them for Archilus just for page testing. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 18:22, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::Its awesome~ And notes could be added "if any" like the dialogue and wares. Wegner is a good NPCpage to test, he have info + history (and i super mega support the format of history in wegner for all pages!). Biscotti and Kozma could be used for test too. I support this format :). --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 21:06, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-==NPC Format: Newer==
-So, I know before we discussed heavily the NPC page format, but now that we've actually been working with pages, it's of course run into several hiccups. I've decided to move the gallery down to the bottom (many game/anime wikis have a gallery at the bottom, my favorite is [http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Dave_Strider pages such as this one on the Homestuck wiki], but they put their "notes" ([http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/102232 trivia, which SK editors have decided to wipe out, replacing with notes]) under the gallery, which looks bad for our wiki because we don't use Wikia's base chassis.
-So I've adjusted Wegner and Archilus again...what do you think now? Wares are closer to the top...which for some NPCs, especially Basil, is more desired information anyway.
-I might not be able to do much today. Big tummy ache. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 22:43, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-Yeah, I am liking the gallery on the bottom much better. It's a consistent format with other wikis and equipment pages such as [[Obsidian Edge]]. The only pages that seem to break it are pages such as [[Bolted Vee]] and so on, but that's essentially a giant sortable gallery that potentially expands down forever, so having any information besides "see also" after such a thing would be very inconvenient. What I'm annoyed about now is the history section, some NPCs have a lot, most don't, but it should be in the same location on the page so people can find the information easily. But then we end up with ittybitty sections. Just argh. How I got around this before was the notes section. It's all very frustrating. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 22:55, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:Well it now fit with other page's format like weapons page right? A short organization would be:
-*(What is, what does, etc, descirption but without tab)
-*Appearance (with template if its knight)
-*Wares (if any)
-*Dialogue (if any)
-*Notes (if any, and if there is notes)
-**History (if any)
-*Gallery
-*See Also
-Right? I add "notes" because it could be:
-<pre>
-==Notes==
-===History===
-Text
-</pre>
-If there is only history, wegner could be:
-<pre>
-==Notes==
-Allusions
-===History===
-Text
-</pre>
-Well, i said it to keep all as the same, and keep History with thre === right? or we can add Notes, History, Gallery with all having ==
-But we can discuss that later :) im taking care of the images so u can rest for your tummy ache ^^ take medicine to gel well~ --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 23:06, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:I have incorporated this into "test 2" edits of Wegner and Archilus pages. I am a stubborn type... if I suddenly stop editing, you'll know why. Napping off the tummy ache. If you think test 2 edits look good, I'll try them out on a few other NPC pages I think will be problematic. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 23:14, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-:Test 3 puts the dialogue above the gallery below notes. I think I'd be happy with this overall. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 23:26, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
-::Test 3. Dialogue between notes and gallery looks good! Not all notes-info above (in "description") but neither no-info. Just a little thing, we should write "Town Square" not "Haven Town Square", same with others (Like Garrison and Bazaar) it only exist one of each, and, in the strange case somehow SK release a new town with another town square/garrison/bazaar, take in count that we can make redirects and still, need to create new pages like Town Square (Haven, and Town Square (NewCity) xD So i think we are safe to put Town Square, Garrison, Bazaar, Arcade, and so on, only, not "Haven Bazaar" or that. --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 00:51, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::Yeah, I agree. No need for Haven before these areas. We can always fix it later in the extremely unlikely event they make more elaborate towns outside of Haven. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 01:14, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
-::::Okay then :3! Im not gonna add the format because we're still testing it but only fix those Haven Etc that were left behind because i fix some yesterday. Hope you feel better with your ache ^^! --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 01:22, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
-==NPC Format: almost there!?==
-Oh I remember why I started doing "Haven Town Square" etc. - it was because of the "Arcade" mission/exploration interface vs. the [[Haven Arcade]] location in Haven. Oh well. What do? --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 11:10, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
-After much napping upon this issue, I find myself most pleased with Archilus' page format. This would result in [http://wiki.spiralknights.com/index.php?title=Template:Page/NPC&oldid=227757 this format] (I restored the linking in the brackets, as that's part of a template system and is convenient per section - overlinking is mostly an issue in paragraph format). If you agree with this layout, I will press forward with changes. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 10:41, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
-I have made what I think is a better, less repetitive, more clear, less confusing, blahblah template for vendors. It needed to be done because their format is so...not in-sync with the rest of the wiki. It's still very beta, but I stuck it on Archilus' page for testing. What do you think so far? It might influence our format decisions. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 22:19, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
-I have also put a demo on [[Talk:Brinks]] because he has an inventory with a lot of item type variety. My main goal is to ensure players understand that the vendor sells an ITEM, vs. a RECIPE for that item, and to make sure they don't miss that certain items can be bought with different things - Rock Salt for example, or Dark Harvest Prize Boxes for different candy tokens, and so on. If you like the format, feel free to make more entries, cross-referencing with in-game proofs and [[User:MissNice#Wiki_Data_Area|Miss-Nice's data]] to make sure it's up to date, because many pages are out of date. Or say you don't like it/there's problems.
-And finally, how does this vendor list template influence our decision with the NPC page general format? (Should it be called WaresList instead?) I continue to prefer [http://wiki.spiralknights.com/index.php?title=Archilus&oldid=227856 this version of Archilus] the most. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 00:14, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
-Considering the nature of the vendorlist template, and the general format of the entire wiki (players will likely try to find items via the main lists or the item pages, not NPC pages), I'm thinking it would be best to put wares on the bottom, above "See Also." The logic is the same as other pages with lists - lists are large and potentially forever-downward expanding, having content besides "see also" after lists isn't prudent. It also makes sense, because many lists are essentially sortable galleries (something I mentioned previously), though vendor lists are not as gallery-like as others. As soon as we agree, I'll make the changes, since I'm the one making a fuss about it and it would ultimately be my mess.
-Compare:
-*[http://wiki.spiralknights.com/index.php?title=Archilus&oldid=227870 this version of Archilus, which I currently like the most]
-*[http://wiki.spiralknights.com/index.php?title=Archilus&oldid=227856 this version of Archilus, which I like a lot, but now, not as much as the one above]
-I think letting the gallery have more than 3 per row really makes a huge difference, we just have to be careful, because not everyone has a large monitor. It looks fine on my laptop, which has a rather small screen. It will be horrid for phone browsers, but since this is a gaming wiki with a lot of information, catering to phones isn't prudent.
---[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 01:01, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
-==Shortcuts==
-Those redirects/pages shouldn't be tagged with shortcuts. Shortcuts are reserved for Spiral Knights Wiki project reference pages (SpiralKnights: namespace) only. It's a very technical thing. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 00:59, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
-It seems pretty silly to me though. I'll see if we can't talk about it with staff, because it would be nice to be able to use it this way. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 01:08, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
-:I'll see if it would be okay to make [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Redirects_from_short_names the equivalent of this] for our wiki. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 01:16, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
-::Lol then [http://wiki.spiralknights.com/es/Categor%C3%ADa:Redirecciones_desde_atajos this] is no good haha. (Its the equivalent of shortcut tag in the ES wiki). But why dont we use the tag? i mean it is almost empty anyway. It only have two pages, and one of them is the manual. Even equinox used the shortcut tag to the "Template:D" right? we can just ask to "change the rules" and allow shortcut tag to be used anywhere (again, equinox used it anyway xD) but well, im going to sleep now :) i probably wouldnt log tomorrow so see you later~ P.D: hope ur tummy ache dissapeared :) --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 05:46, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
-::I agree, that's why it seems silly to me. Night! --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 05:53, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
-==Image==
-Just FYI, Hat Simulator is a guild. The image doesn't portray unreleased content, so it's essentially fan art, and as far as I know the Spiral Spy thing isn't an issue because of this. It's not going to be used in an official capacity regarding articles about the game. Pretend it's "Guildspace." --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 21:25, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
-:Ohh it is? Though it was fanart but didnt know the spiral spy's "rules" allow it xD thx for that save --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 23:19, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
-::TBH I don't really know for sure (98% sure?) Thanks for finding my embarrassing early uploads and adding delete tags. I tried to find them all before but files are sneaky. The wiki feels overly biological with its "rules" sometimes. Oh yeah, follow this rule to a T, except for this, this, and this exception. Bleh. --[[User:Novaster|Novaster]] 10:30, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
-:::Ohhh those accesories shows? they looks nice tho! but too complicated to do (overworld are "easier" xD) haha :). And i didnt get the "folow this rule to a T" x-x! --[[User:HikaruFer|Hikaru]] 02:29, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

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