Difference between revisions of "Talk:Swordmaster Guide"

Latest revision as of 06:25, 22 April 2013

Class Discussion

I've recently created a page called Class Discussion in order for 'classes' to better cooperate together. If you have opinions or gripes about the other classes, please drop by to give your opinion. --Apath

ASI Vs. Damage Boost

I'm gonna add a bit about ASI Vs. Damage boost... Hopefully It will help add variety of play... ~Tsubasa-No-Me

ASI hardly makes a difference for fast swords. They should be moved to the damage boost category.--Trying 04:56, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

My tests have indicated that ASI makes the same proportional difference for both fast and slow swords. I really think damage vs. speed is more of a play-style thing than something you'd choose on the basis of which sword you're using. Some people say slow swords benefit from speed because it mitigates their weakness, others say slow swords benefit from damage because it enhances their strength... --Antistone 17:56, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Following up on testing and simulation; other than the Striker series, Max ASI gives roughly the same DPS as Max Damage: ASI giving +~28% while Damage giving +~32%, hardly a difference in Lockdown. (Less than a half pip difference on Hammer-swing+dash) There is a fundamental difference in how they operate though. ASI indirectly increases DPS, while not increasing the burst damage, meanwhile DMG directly increases DPS. Unless I am consistently and constantly doing damage, then the actual damage increase from ASI is hypothetical, meanwhile, regardless if I'm hitting once a second, or once an hour, DMG increase directly affects my damage output. HOWEVER, the ability to stagger an opponent should not be overlooked, if I can't get a single swing out, then what good is my damage bonus? The true shame of the matter is that striker series craps out at Very High, and there is no 5* spur line. Jagganath 04:38, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

See also the Lancer Knightz (Guild)/Data project, which shows that damage bonus adds about 5%, while ASI adds about 3.5% (with a lot of variation in the latter). Jdavis 16:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

ASI increasing the speed by ~3.6% over 6 levels translates into ~27.5% DPS increase. DPS~= Damage/Attack_rate. In the debate with DMG over ASI, it's better to aim for high ASI weapons, but currently there is no general Sword damage bonus UV. Jagganath 05:04, 23 March 2013 (UTC) edited for clarification.Jagganath 17:05, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

No. Each level of damage bonus increases your DPS by about 5%, while each level of ASI increases your DPS by about 3.6%. So damage bonus is better for increasing DPS. On the other hand, what you really care about is not damage-per-second but rather kills-per-second (KPS) or maybe strokes-per-kill. ASI always improves KPS by about 3.6%, while damage bonus sometimes has no effect on KPS (if it still takes you 3 strokes to bring down the monster) and sometimes dramatically affects KPS (suddenly it takes you only 2 strokes). So there is no simple resolution to the ASI vs. damage bonus "dispute". Jdavis 19:33, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Hope ya don't mind

Gonna add my "Ask a Master Swordsman Anything" link in there. Also gonna edit a few things for the brandish line, anything else I see I'll tell you here first.

Who posted the above? --DieGremlins 13.18, 13th May 2012

BigfootM, on 2011 Oct 5, I think. Jdavis 17:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

DISCLAIMER

I'M USING GUNSLINGER GUIDE AS A BASE TO KEEP CONSTANT STYLE AMONG GUIDES, NOT AS PLAGIARISM

To do list

To do: -Add some sword technique videos -Add more links to other Wiki pages -Write tactics against bosses

--Prizmat 17:38, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Updated to include Sudaruska, Triglav and Spur. Hope you don't mind.

--OverDingle 18:18, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

The Page Title

It really should be Swordsman instead of Sword-master. Usage is not equivalent to competency.--SpiralMike 17:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree, but Swordmaster just sounds so much better xD You may rename it if it is a significant difference --Prizmat 17:52, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Revamp Start

I did a little revamping of the slow/medium sections including sections for every sword instead of the lines, and basing them off the highest * version for consistency. IMO both this and the gun guide need more revamping still, including videos/pics and such like the bomb guide has. It'll be hard to match the bomb guide in quality but it won't hurt to try. :P ~Katmint 21:55, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Hybrid Sets

I've played a fair bit of tier 3 now, and I don't see this overwhelming preponderance of elemental damage you've implied. Slime and beast levels are filled with piercing damage, and fiend and undead levels are filled with shadow damage, just like you'd expect. Elemental is basically only dealt by constructs, and while they are the most common monster class, they're still only one class out of six. I'll grant that Mecha Knights get a better upgrade at tier 3 than most monster lines, but I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the "elemental is far more important" meme is mostly a holdover from when more monster types dealt it and we didn't have piercing/shadow turrets. --Antistone 19:31, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Late reply, but yeah, Elemental isn't nearly as important as it used to be. IIRC that debate was shortly before the shadow/piercing turrets were added and the damage types have been rebalanced a lot since then. My reasoning back then was mainly "Turrets are omnipresent and always do Elemental" so yeah. I hope you don't mind but since it's no longer relevant and was taking up a lot of space I cleared out the old debate. ~Katmint 01:12, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Regardless what you were thinking back then, you deleted many people's comments and that's a no-no. If something is cluttering a page up, archive it. --HexZyle 02:14, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Just finished the archive, you can find it here --HexZyle 02:23, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

"Many people's comments?" The entire section was just me and Antistone in a long-winded argument. I guess it's fine to archive it, I just didn't want it on the talk page because it was huge to the point of attention-grabbing and anyone who might think of replying would be wasting their time with an out of date debate. ~Katmint 05:27, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I only read it after archiving it. But needless to say, regardless of the content, if it's not your comment, don't delete it. (Unless its offensive etc etc. This is what annoys the crap out of me about facebook...it's based around a forum but it's the most crappiest forum I've ever seen) --HexZyle 11:24, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Control Scheme

The current Control Scheme is almost forced to be used, without showing that there are (for me, better) alternatives. Did you ever tried using 'Space' as shield and RMB as next weapon? It might be an idea to show different schemes. --TGYoshi 18:11, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

IMO, that section doesn't even need to be there. Everyone has their own preference for control scheme. The guide also fails to take into account those who use the mouse with their left hand or have a non-QWERTY keyboard layout. Personally I find swords much easier to use with move and face bound to the arrow keys, and using PL:" and mouse for aiming guns or kiting with sword charge attacks. That's the only control setup I'm comfortable with. :\ ~Katmint 18:27, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd say that that section actually pushes people to use the shown setup, and not trying to find out their own preference. And indeed, for people who are left-handed or use a non-qwerty keyboard it's worthless as well. - Short: The section is only a HEAVY opinion, too heavy. TGYoshi 18:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, however, it does say that it is an "example." Perhaps something along the lines of "However, keyboard set-ups are a matter of personal preference" could be added.--03u9 l Pueo 22:12, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Maybe make the whole scheme less visible. Since it has a dark lay-out it's really eye-catching for me. --TGYoshi 11:46, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I added a left-handed control scheme. Nihilism

Recommended Choices?

Should the Weaponry section (where it lists the speed and such of all the swords) contain a section that compares all the swords of a specific speed and recommends one based purely on pros and cons, with no bias? I feel like this could help newer players see which sword is "best" overall. --03u9 l Pueo 18:23, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

The problem with saying one thing is better/worse overall is that someone will protest it. I tried saying mixed Vog/Skolver was worse than specializing sets and it caused a huge wall of text argument. So I say no. ~Katmint 18:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I see. Thanks --03u9 l Pueo 19:13, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Damage Types

"Generally, swords have either Normal or split Normal and other damage. This prevents swordsmen from taking as much advantage of damage types as gunners can, but the bonuses are still quite significant. The only exception are the Flourishes and Thorn Blades which deal pure Piercing damage which allows them to greatly outdamage other swords while fighting enemies vulnerable to Piercing."

I've been doing some calculations recently, and my results show this to be untrue. Due to the way damage is calculated, whether pure special damage receives better bonuses than split normal/special damage appears to depend on how much base damage the attack in question has. In the damage ranges that most guns are in, pure special does in fact seem to receive higher bonuses. However, in the damage range where most swords are, split damage seems to receive equal or greater bonuses compared to pure special damage.

The forum thread where I discuss my efforts is at http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/39273 and some graphs I made from my data are on my user page. --Exasperation 22:33, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

A Gunslinger's Perspective

This is a late response to the "A Swordmaster's Perspective" on the gunslinger guide. More specifically, I'm replying to the last line, "Feel free to drop by the Swordmaster Guide and tell me everything we do that you hate." I use guns exclusively (only having one Final Flourish which is rarely even put in my loadout unless Greavers might be present). Like Antistone, I'm not sure how to put this into the guide (or even if it should be), so I'll just leave it in the discussion.

Firstly, allow me to explain the main reason gunners don't always like working with swordsmen. Simply put, for the team to work, a swordsman needs to watch where he's swinging that thing.

Prime example: The party encounters a sizable mob. A couple of the foes about are Lumbers, and thankfully one's at the far corner of the group. Knowing these are prime targets for guns over swords, I whip out my elemental gun and find my angle, keeping a safe distance so my Polaris shots can deal their most damage (the shots expand and do more damage after about 4 squares). For some reason, one of the sword-wielders in the part goes about to the Lumber's far side--ignoring Silkwings in the back which I can't easily target in the process--and proceeds to unleash a charge attack to its backside, knocking it right into me so I can get stunned and take one of the hardest hits common enemies are capable of dishing out. This highlights almost everything a bad swordsman will do.

Know Your Targets

Needless to say, swords in general are better suited for some enemies--particularly healers who like to hide behind other foes, Greavers who like to get up too close for comfort and stay there, etc. In a group, anyone should should pick their prime targets before approaching--those who possess the most threats (like healers and greavers), or the best targets for their current loadout's specialty.

If there's a gunner in the team, the last thing a pure-swordsman should do is first approach ideal gun targets, like Lumbers, or turret enemies such as Gun Puppies. Yet, I see it happen in virtually every group I join.

Know Your Allies

A good swordsman needs to plan out where knockback is going to send his chosen target before he starts wailing on it. A good swordsman does this, and usually narrows it into a corner or at least away from the center of the fight; but really, it could be just about anywhere another one of his teammates isn't, especially not one in the middle of reloading a Polaris. Gunners tend to try to either stay in one spot or backpedal predictably, so this really shouldn't be very difficult.

If there's only one enemy left, and a gunner's backpedaling away from it as he fires, the absolute LAST thing you should do is come up behind the enemy and knock him forward into the gunner. Personally, I'm very good at avoiding damage (and reviving those who aren't, as what seems to be a distance gunner's purpose at times), so it becomes all the more apparent to me when a swordsman carelessly knocks an attacking foe into me when it wasn't even a threat to anyone a moment ago. Ideally you should either run between the gunner and the enemy or let him finish it off, but if you must knock it away, at least don't hit it towards the gunner. That should be obvious, but it happens with eerie regularity.

Spread Out

Assume there's a widespread mob in play; I took a few shots on a Lumber, and am reloading for another round or two of bullets to shoot it dead. As I fire from a very safe distance, my Polaris bullets--while potent and surely able to meet their mark--completely miss after a swordsman arbitrarily knocks the Lumber away with a charged sword attack... which coincidentally will do less damage than three consecutive shots from a super-effective gun.

The swordsman presumably continues battering it around (God help him if he hits it with that and then moves onto a different target). Meanwhile, not only was my time and effort on those shots wasted, but I'm forced to waste more time and potential vulnerability reloading, then choose a different and presumably less ideal target.

The way SK is built, only bosses or turrets make decent targets for multiple knights. It's good idea to keep this in mind, especially when you're a swordsman whose every attack can cause knockback.

Even if this doesn't make it into a guide, I hope at the very least it might cause a few less headaches between gunners and swordsmen. --DekuSamurai 02:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Although teamwork is important, you've missed multiple errors that you have made.

Firstly, It is much more effective to fire two rounds and then wait for the cooldown rather than to fire 3 shots and reload. Your damage output will be higher, and you'll be mobile for a longer period of time, and have the ability to shield.

Secondly, you need to account for teammates attacks and movements, especially monster aggro, when firing or just attacking in general. (and especially so for bombing) Remember that your pulsar has more than likely knocked enemies out of your teammates reach countless times at other points in the dungeon. It is wiser to watch for a moment your teammates actions, and plan accordingly. For instance, if a teammate is knocking an enemy back, you place a bomb behind the enemy so that they knock it into the radius. Same goes for guns, the pulsar more so than other guns.

Thirdly, remember that certain targets are a higher priority to different knights, and it is more important to target an enemy with multiple knights, regardless of the inefficiency. In times when there are no other enemies nearby, sometimes this is the most desirable choice.

Fourthly, although gunners focus on damage output, the ranger class is generally a SUPPORT class. Our attacks don't knock enemies around, so we can do damage without causing inteference. With the exception of the Pulsar and Nitronome, which are widely known as the two most interrupting weapons for all players alike in the game. --HexZyle 02:31, 10 March 2012 (UTC)